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Gary Francione interview

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Gary Francione interview

Autor: Vegan Alex | Datum:
[Link zum Interview eingebaut - Moderator]

Zuerst Ich entschuldige mich weil ich diese auf English schreiben wird, weil ich mein Deutsch nich so gut ist. Ich hoffe dass ihr alle kann es verstehen.
Well, I saw there was a Gary Francione interview in the Texte section of this website, I was wondering if anyone shares his ideas.
I´m an animal rights activist in Spain and the work I do is basically "educating" people about how non human animals are sensitive beigns whose life matters to them, and that therefore we must respect that interest to live they have. I also talk to people about Spezismus and why discriminating an animal because it belongs to another specie is just as unethical as discriminating someone because he/she belongs to a different race, usw. I find this is the most effective way to fight specisism and end with it, because once we end with spezismus all the areas in which animals are used will dissapear.
However, I see almost no animal rights groups use this strategy, and it seems most animal liberation actions are related with direct action or fighting a especific use of animals (Pelz, Zirkus, usw). What´s the point of liberating animals from a lab if they are going to be replaced the day after? why doing actions against McDonalds, labs or fur industry if people will still eat meat, drink milk, or use animals in other way? Don´t you think it is more effective to educate people about animal liberation and veganism rather than attacking animals exploiters? After all they try to fullfill a demand which would exist if people gradually went vegan.

Anyway, hope to hear your opinion. Antwor auf Deutsch wenn du willst.

Re: Gary Francione interview

Autor: nick | Datum:
hi alex,

>I was wondering if anyone shares his
> ideas.

I actually do :-)

> I´m an animal rights activist in Spain and the work I do is
> basically "educating" people about how non human animals are
> sensitive beigns whose life matters to them,

and how concretly do you educate them (do you go to schools, universities or create flyers etc.)?

> therefore we must respect that interest to live they have. I
> also talk to people about Spezismus and why discriminating an
> animal because it belongs to another specie is just as
> unethical as discriminating someone because he/she belongs to
> a different race, usw. I find this is the most effective way
> to fight specisism and end with it, because once we end with
> spezismus all the areas in which animals are used will
> dissapear.

Thats definetely true ! And it would be great, if mor animal rights groups were able to focus more on the information and ethical education of people instead of focusing on single actions like anti-ciruc, anti-fur etc. pp.

> However, I see almost no animal rights groups use this
> strategy, and it seems most animal liberation actions are
> related with direct action or fighting a especific use of
> animals (Pelz, Zirkus, usw).

as I just said :-) I cannot find anything wrong about those direkt actions, demos or education about those specific problems, but the problem ist the percentage of time they spend with those activities!

>What´s the point of liberating
> animals from a lab if they are going to be replaced the day
> after?

Well, the point about liberations or direct actions in general is, that a vegan society in maybe 300 years will not save any animal that exists and suffers today ! And we even don't know, if there will ever be a true anti-speciesistic society ! So there is an utter need for helping at least some animals TODAY. Otherwise our arguments would be shallow, too !

greetings
nick

Re: Gary Francione interview

Autor: Vegan Alex | Datum:
nick, is great to hear that there´s people who shares these ideas.
Where do you live? what kind of animal lib activities do yo do?
What we do here is basically educate people, we have an information table in the street where we have leaflets, we have a vegan recipe booklet, and we just basically talk to people. We also organize anti specisist workshops, do demos and performances in the street....
oh by the way, here´s my email if you want to write alerc01@hotmail.com

Achim: Ich habe deine antwork noch nicht gelesen, Ich brauche and wortebuch und ich habe kein here. Aber es ist mir ja gut wenn du auf Deutsch mir schreibt als ich auch Deutsch praktizieren kann.

Re: Gary Francione interview

Autor: Tanja | Datum:
Hi Alex,

> nick, is great to hear that there´s people who shares these
> ideas.

Most of the people in this forum share these ideas, I think. ;-)

> Where do you live? what kind of animal lib activities do yo do?

That's what I'm interested in as well. ;-)

> What we do here is basically educate people, we have an
> information table in the street where we have leaflets, we
> have a vegan recipe booklet, and we just basically talk to
> people. We also organize anti specisist workshops, do demos
> and performances in the street....

Maybe you've seen the photo archive of Maqi, we also do that kind of things. It's just rather difficult to find people who do not just want to act against vivisection, "fur" etc. but want to take part in establishing anti-speciesism and veganism. If you would like practicing more German, you could have a look at the discussion about the campaign against a vivisection lab here in Germany: http://veganismus.ch/foren/read.php?f=6&i=508&t=507. ;-)
Do you have a website where some of your acitivities are documented?
It's great to hear from other animal rights activists who do not just participate in animal welfare activities. :-)

Tanja

Re: Gary Francione interview

Autor: Vegan Alex | Datum:
I never said people here would be welfarists, I knew people were abolitionst and I just wanted to point out a differnt way to aproach animal liberation. I just said I consider it more important to try to establish an anti specisist mentality rather than attacking a special target. However, I had a very different image of how the animal liberation movement in germany was like (I must accept I didn´t read much about it), I thought it was a more ALF-like movement.
Yes, our group has a website, it is www.liberacionanimal.org. The site isn´t very good, but we´ll have a new cool site very soon. oh, the site is in Spanish (just for the moment though).
Anyway, if you want more info, email me alerc01@hotmail.com

liberación animal

Autor: Achim Stößer | Datum:
> mentality rather than attacking a special target. However, I
> had a very different image of how the animal liberation
> movement in germany was like (I must accept I didn´t read

So what's your "image" now?

> Yes, our group has a website, it is www.liberacionanimal.org.

Nice logo.

> The site isn´t very good, but we´ll have a new cool site very

Agreed ;-) . Actually it seems to be a typical welfarist site, not an AR site at. Although you claim a difference "de las clásicas organizaciones proteccionistas", your site mainly presents quite the same image (as far as I can tell due to lack of Spansish skills): The main sections consist of
- vegetarianism (although vegetarianism means exploitation and murder, not, as it reads there "an ethical diet"; the only ethical alternative, veganism, isn't even mentioned except for two book titles)
- and typical welfarist marginal themes: vivisection, bull-fight, fur, abandoning animals, hunting and "otras formas de abuso" like zoo, circus.

"News and Articles" seems even worse (includig the classical "Chinese bears"). Same holds for the links section (as far as I know the sites you link to). "Colabora con ALA" seems to be restricted to paying 45 € per year ...

Well, you probably know all that yourself ;-), so I hope the "new cool site" will be really different. Renaming your Newsletter "Boletín Antiespecista" (oh, gosh, there's a vegan chocolate cake recipe ;-)) sounds promising.

I don't know how far the developement of your new site is. Assuming it's way more abolitionist than the old one (and I guess so from what you wrote in the beginning) feel free to use Maqi material (articles or pictures). BTW if none of you knows enough German to translate the articles, some will soon (ahem, well, or not so soon) be available in other languages (like English ;-). "Vegetarier sind Mörder" for example; a Spanish version would be great, for many people have become vegan after reading this article (see http://veganismus.ch/foren/read.php?f=2&i=586&t=586).

Achim

Re: liberación animal

Autor: Vegan Alex | Datum:
The website hasn´t been updated in a long long while, and yeah, it looks like a welfarist website and I don´t usually recomend it to anyone. Of course chinese bear stuff won´t be there. The organization changed a lot in the past 2 years. Now we mainly focus on promoting anti specisism and veganism. THe new website should be up in a couple of weeks, it´ll be only in spanish right now, but we are thinking about translating it into english and other languages.

Vegetarier sind Mörder sounds promising, although I don´t like the title much, I prefer not calling anyone anything because they aren´t maybe aware of what eggs and diary actually mean. However I do find it important to write such things.

Also, I was wondering, how "normal" people react over there when you talk to them about animal lib or specisism? Here people comes to us thinking we are some kind of animal shelter or something, or an anti bullfighting group, the reaction they have after we explain why animals have interests that we must respect they go like "I agree with you except with the veganism issue". DOes it happen everywhere or just here?

Re: liberación animal

Autor: Achim Stößer | Datum:
> Now we mainly focus on promoting anti specisism and veganism.

Sounds good.

> Vegetarier sind Mörder sounds promising, although I don´t
> like the title much, I prefer not calling anyone anything
> because they aren´t maybe aware of what eggs and diary
> actually mean. However I do find it important to write such

Of course the title refers to those who are aware. And this title is quite important, for it attracts their attention and makes them read the article. And after reading, they are aware, because the text ruthlessly presents the facts.

We are using the same article with another title ("Warum ich kein Vegetarier bin") with much less success.

> Also, I was wondering, how "normal" people react over there
> when you talk to them about animal lib or specisism? Here
> people comes to us thinking we are some kind of animal
> shelter or something, or an anti bullfighting group, the
> reaction they have after we explain why animals have
> interests that we must respect they go like "I agree with you
> except with the veganism issue". DOes it happen everywhere or
> just here?

I guess it's pretty much the same everywere (except for details, there are no bullfights here, so it doesn't come to their minds).

There are all kinds of reactions, from insight to shock to alleged vegetarianism to ridiculous excuses to dismay to denial to physical attacks. Often people want to "sign petitions against battery farms" etc. or donate and then are pretty surprised when we tell them that such petitions are hogwash (oops, is that word speciesist?) are humbug and that we don't want their money but instead want them to become vegan.

Achim

Re: Gary Francione interview

Autor: Tanja | Datum:
> I never said people here would be welfarists, I knew people

No, maybe they are not. But when you have a look at their activities you will see that there is not much difference to animal welfare activities. That's the problem.

> way to aproach animal liberation. I just said I consider it
> more important to try to establish an anti specisist
> mentality rather than attacking a special target. However, I

Indeed, it's not just more important, it's absolutely necessary to establish an anti-speciesist mentalitiy. But people find it easier to act against a few special targets, because they will be more "successfull" (well, they think so) than by talking to "every-day-speciesists". That's what I said in the discussion about "Covance".

> had a very different image of how the animal liberation
> movement in germany was like (I must accept I didn´t read
> much about it), I thought it was a more ALF-like movement.

Maybe it was something like that years ago, I don't know, but that is not the case today.

> The site isn´t very good, but we´ll have a new cool site very
> soon. oh, the site is in Spanish (just for the moment though).

Please ínform us when the new website is online. :-)

Tanja

Wörterbücher online

Autor: martin.p | Datum:
> Ich brauche
> and wortebuch und ich habe kein here.

Die gibt's doch auch online.
Z. B. hier.

Re: Gary Francione interview

Autor: Achim Stößer | Datum:
> Gary
> Francione interview
in the Texte section of this
> website, I was wondering if anyone shares his ideas.

Im wesentlichen sicher - wer nicht, hält sich tendenziell in, ähem, anderen Foren auf ;-) . Was natürlich nicht heißt, daß ich in allem und jedem mit dem was er sagt (und wie er es sagt) einverstanden bin. So etwa seine Terminologie, wie Speziesisten Leichen(teile) als "Fleisch" usw. zu bezeichnen, ohne sich zu distanzieren, sein Gebrauch von "rein vegetarische Ernährung" statt "vegane Ernährung". Wenn ich mich recht erinnere, stammt das Vorwort zu einem seiner Bücher (das ich nicht gelesen habe) von einem, der darin schreibt, er würde selbst "Fischen". Das halte ich für gelinde gesagt kontraproduktiv.

Aber das wesentliche: Abolition statt Reform, Konzentration auf Veganismus statt auf Randthemen usw., wirst Du hier stark vertreten finden. Das schlägt sich natürlich auch in unserer Agenda nieder.

> a different race, usw. I find this is the most effective way
> to fight specisism and end with it, because once we end with
> spezismus all the areas in which animals are used will
> dissapear.

Richtig.

> However, I see almost no animal rights groups use this
> strategy, and it seems most animal liberation actions are

"Almost no" ist gut gesagt, welche kennst Du denn? Und zumindest im deutschsprachigen Raum wüßte ich außer Maqi keine, die das in nennenswerter Weise öffentlich macht.

Stattdessen wird, wie Du andeutest ...

> related with direct action or fighting a especific use of
> animals (Pelz, Zirkus, usw). What´s the point of liberating

... das Gros des Aufwands in ineffektive Kampagnen gegen Randthemen investiert.

> animals from a lab if they are going to be replaced the day
> after? why doing actions against McDonalds, labs or fur

Das allerdings ist zu kurzsichtig. Davon abgesehen, daß es den befreiten Tieren konkret hilft, trägt das sehr zur Aufklärung bei; bei geeigneter Öffentlichkeitsarbeit jedenfalls, es gibt leider auch Leute, die solche Chancen ungenutzt verstreichen lassen und Tiere befreien, ohne daß mehr als eine Handvoll Menschen auch nur davon erfährt.

Näheres dazu, wenn auch nicht speziell bezüglich "Versuchtieren", im Tierbefreiungs-FAQ von veganismus.de und in der Maqi-Presse-Rubrik, teilweise, wenn Du englischsprachige Texte bevorzugst, auch auf http://animal-liberation.tk.

> industry if people will still eat meat, drink milk, or use
> animals in other way? Don´t you think it is more effective to
> educate people about animal liberation and veganism rather
> than attacking animals exploiters? After all they try to
> fullfill a demand which would exist if people gradually went
> vegan.

Da rennst Du bei uns offene Türen ein, siehe beispielsweise aktuell die Diskussionen zum derzeitigen Allerweltsthema "Covance" oder "Zirkus" hier im Forum.

Apropos Zirkus: unser neuestes Flugblatt, vordergründig zum Thema Zirkus. Aber tatsächlich wird das Randthema Zirkus hier benutzt, um auf das wesentliche aufmerksam zu machen:
Zitat: All diese Kritik an den Zuständen, so berechtigt sie ist, geht am eigentlichen Punkt vorbei: [...] vielmehr geht es darum, daß in dieser speziesistischen Gesellschaft nichtmenschliche Tiere als Eigentum betrachtet werden, inhaftiert, ausgebeutet, beispielsweise eben zum perversen Vergnügen von Schaulustigen benutzt. Neben Geld- ist die Gefängnisstrafe für Gesetzesbruch am verbreitetsten; andere Tiere gefangenzuhalten, ihre elementarsten Rechte zu beschneiden, nur um Tierausbeutungsvoyeuren einen Kick zu verschaffen, ist also keinesfalls zu rechtfertigen. Es versteht sich, daß entsprechendes gleichermaßen für alle andere Formen der Ausbeutung von Tieren gilt, auch wenn es darum geht, aus ihren Leichen, Drüsensekreten usw. Gebrauchsgegenstände herzustellen oder diese zu verzehren. Ethisch einzig vertretbar ist daher eine vegane Lebensweise.


Bedauerlich nur, daß das Flugblatt wohl in den seltensten Fällen bei Zirkusdemos verwendet werden wird ... eben weil die Leute lieber mit der tierschützerischen Massen schwimmen statt sich konsequent für Tierrechte einzusetzen.

Oder unsere Demo gegen Tierschutz.

Oder http://govegan.tk, übrigens ganz bewußt teilweise mit scheinbar "harmlosen" Bildern von "Kühen auf der Weide" usw.

Und last but not least der Artikel "Vegetarier sind Mörder", durch den allein schon viele Leute vegan geworden sein (ein paar Beispiele sind hier zu finden).

Achim